Advice on Buying Used SqueezeboxesThese notes about used accordions were collected from the Squeezebox Newsgroup. Subj: Re: Old Accordion
prices The note below got me thinking about the advisability of buying an accordion for "only" $250 or so. While you might get one that was playable and in tune I wouldn't count on it. Generally once an accordion gets to be 25-30 years old or so you can count on major maintenance items. Generally this is about the life span of the wax that holds the reeds in and may dictate a rewaxing job. In addition no accordion that is 30 years old is going to be very in tune. Other things that are quite likely to pop up are mold in the accordion, rusty reeds, wornout/damaged bellows, bad reed leathers. All of these things tend to run the cost of that "cheap" accordion up rapidly. You could be looking at anywhere from $300 to $1500 for a renovation project. My advice is that if you decide to buy a cheap accordion you consider the hidden costs and decide up front whether it is of a quality that would warrant any outlay of money. Often if you get a cheap accordion and you can live with its defects and only want it as a knock around accordion or a student instrument you might be able to use it for a while...just don't rely on it for any heavy duty use. If you are considering purchasing an old accordion a couple of tests you can do to see if it is facing impending doom are: Bob Berta ----------------------[Reply - Original Message]----------------------
Me too. However, the part of the country where you live, and whether you live in an urban or rural area, can have a lot to do with prices. In the DC area, you'd be lucky to find anything *in playing condition* for under $250, although it can be done. Most of the classifieds I see, people around here are asking $300 and up, and most of these need from $200 on up in repairs before they play and sound decent. Wendy, HMT ====================================================================
Sight unseen, it's impossible to accurately judge the VALUE of an accordion, or any instrument, for that matter. Assuming everything works, the keyboard is level, there are no bad reeds, no internal rattles, no bellows leaks or internal leaks, the instrument is not badly out of tune, and there are no signs of mold on either the case, the straps, or the bellows, you should expect to pay anywhere from $100 to $600. A really fine collectors piece in excellent playing condition would be at the upper end, an ordinary utilitarian box in pretty good condition would be at the lower end. A 40 year old accordion, no matter how nice, is due for an overhaul at a cost of anywhere from $300 for a minimal "get-by-cheap" job up to as much as $1500 for the deluxe treatment. When you purchase an instrument of this age, you are taking a chance on the wax holding up until you have gotten your value out of the accordion. The reed plates could fall out of the wax at any time (or not for years), and then you are faced with the choice of paying for an expensive overhaul, or tossing the instrument and cutting your losses. Even if the reed plates don't actually fall out, as the wax cracks, the sound begins to suffer, and you will have to put up with a lot of annoying buzzes, wheezes, and squeeks from the reeds. Therefore you must also factor in the intrinsic non-musical of the instrument before you make your purchase decision. If it is a really pretty decorative piece, even if it falls apart musically, you will still be able to recoup some of your investment from an antique dealer, who can sell it as a mantelpiece sitter. Or, you may be willing to invest in the eventual overhaul of this accordion. Perhaps you can make a contingency purchase, with a final commitment one way or the other after you get a chance to play the instrument a little bit. If you can't, I wouldn't offer the seller very much money for it. Wendy, HMT ==================================================================== Date: Mon, Mar 13, 1995
Your budget has a lot to do with the answer. Most likely, we are talking about an older box (30 y.o. +) which means while you can probably find one for under a grand, at that age it's likely going to need the reed plates rewaxed soon, a major undertaking, even if it doesn't require anything else. You can squeak by for a couple of years, usually, without having this done, but sooner or later you're going to have to fork over major money for an overhaul. If you find a box you adore, it's worth it. I recently had an accordion I paid $400 for completely rewaxed, leathered, tuned, and other stuff, at a cost of $800. Yes, I minded, but I wouldn't have parted with it for twice that. New full size Italian made PA's, bejewelled or not, can easily run you in the $3000 and up range. Models? There are hundreds. I like the sound of the old Hohners, but the 96 and 120 bass models are a bit too heavy for me. Hohner also made some nice smaller 2 reed musette tuned boxes: 48 bass, 60 bass and 80 bass are manageable. Some have very nice decoration. One great thing about the old Hohners, from a piano player's viewpoint: the piano keys are full (3/4"); a lot of the "ladies'" accordions, which are smaller and weigh less, have narrow keys, either 5/8" or 9/16", that will drive you crazy if you don't have very small hands. How many basses, and what keys? If you are only looking at 120 bass boxes, along with standard keys and lots of decoration, you're talking major weight, even if it's only 3 treble reeds. On the other hand, if you can get by with 80, 72, 60 or 48 basses, you may find the weight more manageable. The keyboards are shorter, and the 2 reed models are quite light. Where to look? Put an ad in your local paper. Put a notice on the Squeezebox list. Haunt garage sales, estate sales, rummage sales, antique shops, flea markets. One note about antique shops: they are never selling musical instruments as such, but as "rare and valuable antiques", and they have NO idea what they are worth as musical instruments. You can find complete junk piles with an asking price of $500. Wendy, HMT ===================================================================== Jeff Myers wrote:
This has been going on for a LONG time, in the DC area, at least. What is really hard to believe is that people will pay hundreds of dollars for a pathetic thing that you or I wouldn't pay $25 for. I have had some lively negotiations with antique shop owners over instrument prices, but I'm rarely able to convince them to lower their prices to a reasonable amount. They know they can sell the instrument for more to a non-player. Wendy, HMT Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 To: hmtrad_at_hmtrad.com, accordion_at_cs.cmu.edu Of course, YMMV; antique dealer musical instrument prices depend a great deal on the situations by which the dealer came into possession of the instrument, and the details of the sale to the 'end-user'. Example: I purchased an extremely ornate Art Nouveau 3-stop Cajun box, ca. 1920 in green, blue and silver with gilt trim, WITH its original 1906 instruction book, at an antique dealer in Hopland, California this past April. The instrument was part of a large collection of musical instruments from a Mendocino County estate (woodwinds, brass, violins and guitars, mostly), and the dealer had priced it at $150, because it was flashy. Working with Wendy's advice for checking out decrepit boxes, I determined that there was around $200-300 worth of repairs before a useable instrument resulted (rewax, some cleaning, minor bellows repairs). I explained to the dealer that interest in such an instrument was largely limited to other accordion players, and that the price would be equally objectionable to any player. The dealer was reluctant to make more than small concessions on the price UNTIL... I decided to indulge another hobby, and purchased an old pocket watch. Since I have a great deal more experience and sophistication with watches than with squeezeboxes, I could tell that the watch was reasonably priced at $125, which enabled me to offer $180 for both items, and assume that all the savings for bulk purchases had come from the accordion. The important point here is that, like any retailer, the dealer has resources tied up in the item being sold, and they have to get those resources out plus a bit, otherwise they ain't in business no more. A dealer of used stuff is more likely to accept a discounted price on several items than on just one, and you can amortize the total savings on tagged price any way that makes you feel comfortable. Another point to remember is that few antique dealers specialize in old instruments, and so have little idea what they're worth. My experience in the West (with watches, anyway) is that the items just turn up in a bunch of other items, and the dealer simply guesses at value, based on no information whatsoever. Most dealers are eager to learn the historical (and market) realities of the stock they have for sale, and collectors are the best source of that information. So, educate the tradesfolk, when you get the chance; you may not get those great buys from someone who sells things way under value, but at least you're less likely to get ripped off (and, if you develop a friendly relationship with a dealer, they may be able to let you know when they find something in the attic of somebody's Aunt Bertha). Peter =====================================================================
The basses on a piano accordion are arranged (from the players perspective) in vertical rows and diagonal columns (also sometimes referred to as key rows, as in "the C row"). On a full size 120 bass accordion, the count is 6 bass/chord rows (counterbass, fundamental bass, major chord, minor chord, dominant 7th chord, diminished chord) by 20 key rows (all 12 tones of the scale, arranged in 5ths, plus 8 which are duplicated to make smooth bass runs and playing in any key possible, even the ones with lots of black notes). Thus you could say, although nobody ever does, that the 120 bass PA is 6x20. However, on smaller PA's the bass arrangement is not necessarily standardized. A 12 bass, the smallest available, is always 2x6, since the only basses available are the bass note itself and the corresponding major chord, and only 6 of the twelve possible notes are included, Bb, F, C, G, D and A. The Chinese are making a 16 bass, which is 2x8, only slightly more useful than the 12 bass, with the addition of the Eb and E chord rows. A 24 bass is usually 3x8 (bass, major, minor, and chords from Eb to E), and although I have never seen one, I'd bet someone has made a 2x12 or a 4x6. A 32 bass, the next common size, is 4x8. This is sometimes set up in modern instruments with bass, major, minor, and 7th rows, which is really stupid. You might as well have the 24 bass. The more intelligent arrangement is counterbass, bass, major and minor. This arrangement has an advantage over the smaller instruments because it has not only the counterbass and minors, but also 2 more chord rows not available on the 12 bass. All of these smaller instruments have either 25 or 26 treble keys, which is somewhat limiting. The 48 bass used to be more common, during the days when more people were taking accordion lessons as children, and there was more of a demand for an intermediate accordion between the 12 bass they began with, and a full 120 bass instrument. Not all 48 bass accordions were created equal. Some had a full size treble keyboard, some had the full complement of keys but those keys were narrower, some had the same or similar keyboard to the smaller instruments. But the bass layout is where you really see the difference. Nowadays Hohner and others make a 48 bass with 6 rows (including the 7th and diminished rows) by 8 rows, which leaves out several very important bass rows, especially B and F# (you can pick up those bass notes on the counterbass row, though, without the corresponding chords, so it is possible to fake some progressions, and bass runs are not a big problem). Most 6x8 bass accordions only have 26 trebles, a serious shortcoming for playing certain fiddle tunes. Hohner and several other makers used to make a wonderful 48 bass with full size 34-key treble keyboard, and basses in a 4x12 configuration. Thus you had all the chords and basses you really needed, in the chromatic scale. Wendy - House of Musical Traditions ===================================================================== Subj: Re: two excelsior grands available
This just means that they both have 10 switches on the right hand and one has 6 switches on the left side while the other has only one switch on the left side. What's the point of one switch? I asked John the same thing - apparently it's a toggle, so it works out being the same as having two switches.
A power master is an extra master switch (all of the stops open) that is in the form of a bar on the edge under the keyboard that you can hit with your wrist. What does the 4/6 imply on the reeds? 4/6 reeds means that there are 4 sets of reeds on the right hand and 6 sets of reeds on the left hand. ===================================================================== If there are n reeds (on either side), there are 2 to the n possible combinations, except that one of those is all stops shut, which isn't useful, so there are 2 to the n minus 1 meaningful combinations. Thus, with 4 reeds, there COULD be 15 switches. Typically you wouldn't find an accordion having that many switches because some of the combinations would just sound bad, at least to most ears (or at least to the manufacturer's ears). On these Excelsiors there are 10 switches, or ten reed combinations available, or - ten different SOUNDS available. On the left hand there are 6 reeds, and thus 63 meaningful combinations, but obviously a much smaller number are deemed useful. The extra reeds on the left side are intended more for beefing up the sound than for providing variety in sound, as on the right side. Mike Maddux Back to top | Guide to Squeezeboxes | Home Page ===================================================================== |